Jan, I never at any point said that Bill couldn't train a good HPR, I have been told by Pat that he is a brillant dog man and I am sure he is But some of the stuff he writes on this forum isn't helpfull. In saying that he is entitled to his say and I respect that
O.K. Lets go back to the original arg ....... discussion -Endorsements. I'm agin them and will not buy a pup that has an endorsement attached. I have never put any endorsements on any pup I have sold. The nearest I ever came to doing that was when I "swapped" a very young lab that I'd already had a 2nd and a 3rd place with in novice trials for about 4 ft. x 8 ft of weldmesh to be fixed to a kennel !
My endorsement was that she could not be sold on or handed on to anyone else. She had to be returned to me if any problems arose. The man was a friend of mine and he ran her in one trial. She came in either 2nd or 3rd I can't remember. I did this swap because he was a friend and because that bitch was always going to be a bridesmaid never a bride.
I only ever bred from the brides - but I didn't endorse the puppies.
The Plum _________________ The dogs nose is better than yours, let it use it!
O.K. Lets go back to the original arg ....... discussion -Endorsements. I'm agin them and will not buy a pup that has an endorsement attached. I have never put any endorsements on any pup I have sold. The nearest I ever came to doing that was when I "swapped" a very young lab that I'd already had a 2nd and a 3rd place with in novice trials for about 4 ft. x 8 ft of weldmesh to be fixed to a kennel !
My endorsement was that she could not be sold on or handed on to anyone else. She had to be returned to me if any problems arose. The man was a friend of mine and he ran her in one trial. She came in either 2nd or 3rd I can't remember. I did this swap because he was a friend and because that bitch was always going to be a bridesmaid never a bride.
I only ever bred from the brides - but I didn't endorse the puppies.
The Plum
You can put anything in a bill of sale, but there are only two Kennel Club approved endorsements - that is what we are talking about here not any personal arrangement you might have with any bartering of dogs.
The endorsements as per Form 1/AB - the litter pack registration form for Accredited Breeders (of which I am one) - are "R = Progeny not eligible for registration and X = Not eligible for the issue of an export pedigree"
Annie
The endorsements as per Form 1/AB - the litter pack registration form for Accredited Breeders (of which I am one) - are "R = Progeny not eligible for registration and X = Not eligible for the issue of an export pedigree
Does this mean you've paid to go on the list then I was asked and turned it down, the KC got enough of my money without paying to go on a list that also seems to be used by 'Puppy Farmers' according to some reports.
It seems the KC don't know what their left hand nor their right hand is doing. I was with my friend when she read the supplement in which the pups were detailed and she was extremely angry about it to the extent she was going to take the KC to court over the matter. Perhaps they changed their ideas after that. She was one of the first people in the country to import these hounds and she was also a Championship show judge so I don't think she would have been talking through her hat. _________________ Jan
Merlin, hips 9/9=18 and Ghillie, hips 8/9=17
Pull [n or v] An equal and opposite force perpetrated on both ends of a lead that results in the inevitable tripping and falling of the human involved!!
You aren't asked to become an Accredited Breeder. You fill in a form, fulfil certain criteria, confirm that you will adhere to the obligations, and are then asked to sign a declaration that you will abide by the regulations. Presumably if you don't they take the status away. I've never heard of puppy farmw who adhere to the following
Accredited Breeders must:
Ensure that all breeding stock is Kennel Club registered
Hand over the dog's registration certificate at time of sale if available, or forward it to the new owner as soon as possible. Explain any endorsements that might pertain and obtain written and signed confirmation from the new owner, at or before the date on which the dog is physically transferred, that the new owner is aware of the endorsement(s), regardless of whether or not the endorsed registration certificate is available.
Follow Kennel Club policy regarding maximum age and number/frequency of litters.
Permanently identify breeding stock by DNA profile, microchip, or tattoo.
Make use of health screening schemes, relevant to their breed, on all breeding stock. These schemes include DNA testing, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia and inherited eye conditions.
Socialise the puppies and provide written advice, in the Puppy Sales Wallet, on continuation of socialisation, exercise and future training.
Provide written advice, in the scheme Puppy Sales Wallet, on feeding and worming programmes.
Provide a written record, in the Puppy Sales Wallet, on the immunisation measures taken.
Provide reasonable post-sales telephone advice.
Inform buyers of the requirements and the recommendations that apply to Kennel Club Accredited Breeders as well as the existence of the complaints procedure.
Draw up a contract of sale for each puppy and provide a copy in the Puppy Sales Wallet.
In addition there are a number of recommendations:
Accredited Breeders should:
Make sure that whelping facilities accord with requirements for good practice
Ensure that contract of sale clearly lays out to the buyer the nature and details of any guarantee given (e.g. time limit) and/or any provisions for refund or return and replacement of puppy. If endorsements are being used the contract should also explain why these have been placed and under what circumstances they would be removed (if any). The contract should be signed and dated by both breeder and purchaser, showing that both have agreed to these terms.
Commit to help, if necessary, with the re-homing of a dog, for whatever reason, throughout the dog's lifetime.
Follow relevant breed health screening recommendations.
With reference to the accredited breeder scheme, I also received, with my KC newsletter, a form to fill in to become an accredited breeder. I felt the same a Ghilliegumdrop that it was a money grabber by the KC. Surely, all of the requirements that they ask for regarding, selling, health checks etc of puppies would be the normal thing that any responsible breeder would do. I also have seen letters and articles in the dog papers regarding puppy farmers being members of this scheme. Can you tell me if the KC check any of the members of its' scheme to see if they all follow the guidelines?
Regarding all gundogs getting trialing qualifications before being bred from. I believe, there are upwards of 30,000 dog puppies in the gundog group as a whole registered each year. Is the Plum saying that every one should be trialed before breeding from it. Sounds fine in theory but in practice could cause problems!
Also Bill I was not being in any way disrespectful i didn't realise you lived in Scotland, and I was genuinely suggesting That you come and help with training at the weekend.
I know people have their opinions and get set in their ways and in their beliefs.
my late farther trained and owned racing greyhounds all his life and his opinions, ways and beliefs were set in concrete.
/quote]Knowledge is a wonderful thing and something we should never tire of
Sorry, I have been a bit busy trying to train a spaniel . I should have replied earlier Yarak. If you are ever up this way please contact me , I will help if I can if you have a problem.
So far I've managed to avoid getting too set in my ways. I've never been a great fan of using treats but beginning last year I began experimenting. I quickly discarded the clicker, I am just not convinced of its use for gundogs even though I have the gundog clicker training book in the house. A small signal has been substituted for the click but the results have been interesting to me. I began to train my G.S.P. a retrieve delivery where the dummy was actually pushed into my hand. This advanced using what I think is called "free shaping" into him standing on his hindlegs with his front legs/paws in "begging" position and actually putting the dummy into my mouth. I would love to see a judges face in a test if I had him do that !
I like to feel that at least where dogs are concerned I can think "out of the box." I do use many methods considered "old fashioned" but being an old fashioned method does not make it a wrong one. Every method whether old or new are just tools in the box , there to be used as and when required. Long, long before the invention of F.F. , E- collars, electronic launchers , springbird launchers, elasticated rabbits, dummy launchers , clickers and god knows what else , people were training dogs - good ones too. It's not just a case of keeping your mind open to new ideas , if you want some more tools, keep your mind open to older methods too.
The Plum _________________ The dogs nose is better than yours, let it use it!
Regarding all gundogs getting trialing qualifications before being bred from. I believe, there are upwards of 30,000 dog puppies in the gundog group as a whole registered each year. Is the Plum saying that every one should be trialed before breeding from it. Sounds fine in theory but in practice could cause problems![/quote]
You are so right , it would bring everything to a crashing halt !
BUT - THE 30,000 are including all of those dogs that cannot even begin to do the job - all those breeds the show fraternity have ruined as gundogs . Are you ready to lump the brittany in beside them ? I'm not . It is conformation gone crazy ! Which dog is the best at its job ? The one that can do it or the one that cannot ? The show bred absolutely beautiful Irish Setter is a total dumpling at its proper job. It should be better than those scrawny little nearly hairless work types but its not !!! The work type Irish will leave its big cousin for dead on a grouse moor.
Don't take my word for it ,go and watch a trial. Show bred Irish Setters will be scarcer than hens teeth ! Much good their supposedly superior conformation is doing them ! Their breeders made the usual show breeders mistake - they read the original conformation guides and promptly proceeded to exaggerate them . Bigger , heavier and much more hair. They did the usual show thing they conveniently forgot or ommited to breed for the other important things - the work important things that live inside a dogs head or become feeble if not bred for.
All of those breeds are now strangers to the working scene. The labs , the goldies , etc.etc. all made just next door to useless by putting the cart before the horse and looking for wins in a show ring but not at work.
We are not talking about those 30,000 dogs , we are talking about a breed that can still be saved from being " a show dog." It has only been a few hours since I read of just how FEW brittanies are being bred. If that is the case a register of work qualified Brittanies should not be too difficult to get going - If the will is there ! ???
The Plum _________________ The dogs nose is better than yours, let it use it!
That reminds me Gill, I met a couple of people at a show last year who said that you had a Irish Setter from them. Did you work that one before they had it back, or was it just for showing
Annie, the form I had for the scheme was in the KC newsletter which the KC send every now and again, if I get sent a form I take it as an invitation to join. As Dogsbody has asked you....does the KC check up that you are doing what you sign up to or just take the money and you get on with it How will they know if you are not fulfilling their criteria........like I said, money for old rope. It would make more sense if the Clubs ran schemes like this as they would have a better idea [at least in the minority breeds] what their members were doing. What, exactly, do you get out of being a member of this scheme As far as I am aware, and from what you have told us, you have buyers before you breed from your bitch so the KC don't help with that, do they give you a discount on any of the health checks, registering puppies or anything else.....I bet they don't So, tell me the benefits that you actually get from it, apart, of course, from having your name on their LIST Incidently, do you have to inform your local council that you are a member of this scheme and also register the fact that you have breeding bitches, as I believe that in England you have to register if you have a certain number of bitches of breeding age even if you don't breed from them all:?: .
_________________ Jan
Merlin, hips 9/9=18 and Ghillie, hips 8/9=17
Pull [n or v] An equal and opposite force perpetrated on both ends of a lead that results in the inevitable tripping and falling of the human involved!!
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-Endorsements. I'm agin them and will not buy a pup that has an endorsement attached. I have never put any endorsements on any pup I have sold. The nearest I ever came to doing that was when I "swapped" a very young lab that I'd already had a 2nd and a 3rd place with in novice trials for about 4 ft. x 8 ft of weldmesh to be fixed to a kennel !
I was asked and turned it down, the KC got enough of my money without paying to go on a list that also seems to be used by 'Puppy Farmers' according to some reports.
So, tell me the benefits that you actually get from it, apart, of course, from having your name on their LIST 
Incidently, do you have to inform your local council that you are a member of this scheme and also register the fact that you have breeding bitches, as I believe that in England you have to register if you have a certain number of bitches of breeding age even if you don't breed from them all:?: .