The Brittany Forum

Patricia · Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject:

I feel it depends on how much they can take advantage of you....
I can't stand a dog which pulls, so they pull no...walks. 2 years of pulling, what a nightmare Confused

These are tough cookies, and I go along with Goldie' treatment of such behaviour. My sister had a Shepherd with prong collar, he never took any harm from it. I feel some in the UK are getting soft. sorry....

doganjo · Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:45 pm Post subject:

Well if you want a broken and torn coat then go ahead. Rolling Eyes

I used a check chain on my trainers advice for a week last month and it has made a real mess of the back of Al's neck! It'll take ages to grow back.

And I abhor many of the so called 'training aids' they use in USA and would not tolerate them near my dogs. They are downright cruel. But that's another subject. No doubt Ms Coats will defend them as she has opinions on everything. But we do things differently in the UK.

I cannot see that our Breed is so tough as to need such things. Every animal (including human beings!) will respond to consistency and being taught what to do rather than just mindlessly ordered to. JMHO
_________________
Annie

Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away

guy · Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject:

I come to this from a different standpoint on this one- whilst it seems to be the accepted norm 'that it is a Brittany and it will pull' I don't think they have to, or rather you don't have to accept it. I walk my three at heel both on and off the lead. I do however have to keep reminding them what they are doing.
I to am not an advocate of the choke chain, not because of the damage it might do but because I believe if the dog needs heavy correction with a choke chain type collar it has not learned the required act properly in the first place. Likewise the half choke or martingale collar and of these I have yet to see one properly fitted.
Dogs pull into a collar – period – it is a natural reaction for them; choke chains will not stop a dog pulling, I have seen a dog in a spike collar straining so hard it was gasping for breath – so they don't work either. (it was a Bulldog in France) I am also not an advocate of some of the head collars available– in fact I think some of these are more dangerous than a choke chain – think this- a dog is pulling into a collar, and a 'lead correction' is given, the collar is at the base of the neck, the thickest and strongest part. Now think of a dog in a head collar, a similar lead correction is given but here the head is rotated at the top of the neck – the weakest part Now think how we used to hang people to execute them? The head jerked rapidly sideways against the bodyweight so that the head rotates around the spine and the spinal chord is severed. A final thought on this area – is there much physiological difference between a dog pulling into a collar so hard that it is gasping for breath and the old fashioned practice of 'helicoptering' where a dog was suspended vertically by its lead?

There is a problem, if we are going to compare a Brittany with a Labrador – but if we look at them from a different point of view we may not be looking at a problem to solve but an ability to refine. Taking a step back. Do you recognise any of these activities?

Highly energetic.
Extremely playful, with you, by itself and with other dogs.
Intense greeting after an absence by mouthing your clothes and hands, barking and running around.
On a walk does not look to you, or focus on you for long, if at all – but is constantly scanning the horizon.
When free runs from one interest to another- impulsively.
Is at the end of the leash when at the beginning of a walk, but improves after a period of free running.
In the car paces franticly, pants a lot, constantly changes windows for a better view.

An 'average' dog displaying these traits would be classed as hyperactive and treated as such. A child with similar traits could be considered to suffer from Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and treated accordingly, often with medication and always with special teaching methods.

The skills of persistently seeking, of scanning the horizon for the new, of energetic and tireless running, high sociability – linked as it is with fearlessness of new situations are all traits that make a great gundog and have been selected for over succesive generations. So how to deal with it?

Grandin in her book on the understanding of dogs from an autistic person's point of view, discusses the difference between us and a dog when it comes to brain – we have highly developed frontal lobes and a dog doesn't; on the other hand a person with autism has the frontal lobes, but there is impaired communication between these and the lower parts of the brain – making the way an autistic person processes information somewhat similar to a dog. Briefly, for this thread, she points out that dogs see 'detail' and are obsessed by it – they see the leaves on a tree as different to a tree without leaves and see the leaves and the trees before the wood. It thus only takes a small thing to upset or change a dogs understanding of a situation. She notices also that cattle when put into a crush for vetting became very docile and invented a 'squeeze' machine – something that gave all over body pressure and induced a sense of well being in autistic persons..

Dogs have a basic reasoning – they operate to maximise the return on their effort – in fact much as most of us do. Thus they do have expectations of outcome for an action and if the outcome falls above or below this expectation then they will adapt their behaviour accordingly. If expectation and outcome match no change is going to happen. If there is a jackpot – wow! If a behaviour is not rewarded then display of that behaviour is going to stop happening – why waste effort on something that brings no response? However there is a little sting in the tail with this one - if the behaviour is rewarded every so often, and not even in a predictable manner then no amount of ignoring it will make the behaviour stop. Think of chasing a bird or rabbit – if every so often one is caught ......

So how is all of this going to help with walking to heel?

1.Hyperactive children respond better to treats given on a very regular basis rather than wait for one big pay-off after a series of responses. So try your Brit with very regular rewards for walking to heel.
2.Training with a clicker links a reward for an action by marking that action with a 'click'. A word – say 'good' will do just the same if linked to a reward. Research has also found that it is the use of the click or word (once linked to the reward) that ceates the response not the reward itself. So praise is very important.
3.If the dog is given a large handful of salami or warm chicken bits instead of a bit of kibble – it is going to think 'wow that was worthwhile' - I know I would. Jackpot.
4.Does the dog understand the word 'NO' . That it means NO not just 'please don't do that as I will not be very pleased; Make sure the dog understands NO.
5.Have 'kind words' ? These can be a whole sentence – the dog of course will not understand but will understand the tone. I personally use the word 'fine' – it seems a more caressing word than 'good' and allows 'good' to be used as a marker word as mentioned in 2.. So you can have 'good sit' 'good dog' 'good heel' - you have reinforced by repetition the command and added a reward word. Double whammy.
6.Caressing – from Grandin we learned the benefit of pressure – so caress with long firm strokes not a pat on the head (which is a dominance signal anyway so not really appropriate as a reward). Add 'kind words' at the same time and you have a way of using words to imply the physical reward.
7.Don't forget the lead. If you cannot control a dog close to how do you think you will control it well away? If retrievers need to do lead based heel work and we all know how docile they are then a Brittany surely does.
8.Start off with the left foot, tapping the thigh with the left hand. The hand focusses the dog on you and the left foot gives it another visual cue. Remember detail for dogs – when leaving the dog in a 'sit' start on the right foot. Left for heel, right for stay.
9.A great advantage of lead based heel work is the build up of the relationship between you and the dog; reinforced as it can be with food rewards. If the dog is not focussed on food for these exercises then skip a days feed. They don't feed lions in zoos every day – as in the wild lions would not catch something to eat every day; so missing a meal or two for a dog is going to be no different. But it will be grateful for food rewards when training.
10.If the dog pulls ahead step across in front of it – turn left and left again if necessary. A dog won't want its paws trodden on! A variation to this is the right turn and of course the about turn. All need the do to pay attention to what you are doing so build up attention. Lots of verbal praise and reward words.
11.The use of a small twig to tap the nose or flank works well when used as a 'reminder' surprisingly a stalk of grass or flower is equally effective.
12.Are you in charge? If you are not in charge then the dog is. A lot of humans have a 'care and share' relationship with their dog. What a dog is looking for is safety and protection and 'place' .
13.Don't give a command you are not in a position to enforce. So if you instruct sit, make sure the dog does sit. If you don't all you have done is trained it not to sit when it is told.
14.Don't give another command until the first has been complied with.
15.Remember they do detail – a walk in the park is not the same as a walk in the woods. They need to have the experience. Walking to heel with one owner is not walking to heel with the other – necessarily.
16.The trick with 'corrections' is not physical punishment but ' surprise' . Breaking the dog's train of action or thought. One of the beauties of the metal choke chain is the ability to flick ones wrist and get the chain to 'click' reminding the dog; to yank it and throttle the dog is not the way to use one. A bunch of keys thrown near the dog will break its train of thought and I find a scrunched up lead very useful as it is always with you and also if you hit the dog with it no damage is done.
17.A rope or leather slip lead is very convenient for putting on and off in the field – bearing in mind a working dog does not wear a collar as this might get caught in branches. It is also very useful when training as it can be located at the very top of the neck, just behind the ears (there is a small groove if you feel the neck at this point; into which to locate the collar) a dog can be easily lead in any direction when the lead is thus placed. This allows correct behaviour to be rewarded readily and regularly.
18.Keep sessions short – 5 – 10 mins max followed by some play.

The Brittany has a lot of skills already in the box – but they do need directing, it needs to be taught the benefit of self control and a little and often is the way to go.
_________________
Guy, Ellie, Topaz, Catja and in memory Barley
Beauty from Structure
www.epagneulbreton.org.uk

doganjo · Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject:

Guy, this is wonderful stuff. So much better than trying to read chunks copied from someone else's writing.
Even I can follow and understand it.
Thank you.
Annie
_________________
Annie

Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away

Wyngold · Bretonnier Joined: 14 May 2007 Posts: 131

The only time I have ever seen a dog pull on a "prong-pinch" collar not "Spike" collar is when it was not installed/fitted or used properly.
The spanish traditional "Spike" collar is a leather flat collar with 2 staggered rows of Roofing like nails.----such a device should not be used ever. Was used on pointers to teach steadiness in the early 1900's and even still seen on occasion today.
Some "French" professionals use a wicker rug beater to wack the dog over the shoulders to get it to drop when they release the birds from the trap to steady it. This after repeatedly teaching it to drop on command.

Ever watch a loose running dog at a trial get told to "stop" and watch him sink in the shoulder????

Wonder why the younger trainers are getting better results then their forefathers??? Ever train with the top trainers in France??? see what tools they use...they are the exact same ones we use in the USA.

Maybe this is why we can trust our dogs to run as far as they can in search of tough to find game and still know they will not be flushing them willy nilly out of the county out of gun range but hold them until we get there.

As for the "reward" methods yes they are great to shape a behavior.
I use them all the time as well. But what about how do you contrast what is undesirable. So would you feed the desired behavior and when suddenly the dog forgets you and bolts and you have no lead stand around and wait for however long it takes for the dog to return to your side to get focused on you again? If it were off leash does this mean that in that time your dog could be dead or otherwise because the only thing it is learning is what is correct but that there are no consequences for wrong actions other than being ignored?

This is why I believe and still use a "Balanced" approache to training.
I understand that the use of pure positives for fun and games is dandy when life and limb is not in jeopardy. But here a dog caught running livestock can be shot with no questiones asked, just having a loose dog on your property and you owning livestock gives you a license to drop the dog with a gun. It will not matter to the person playing dog show obedience or agility games as that does not require strict compliance its a game.... While hunting competitions are a game as well there is also a slight risk to life when the game is shot....one accidental rush and leap when the gun is fired could give you a dead or seriously injured dog.

So yes Anne...obviously you do not know how to use a check chain properly or were not taught how to use it , or a half check, if your dog has had its coat damaged. you were also not taught how to correct properly and have been yanking and yanking or allowing the dog to pull which is what caused the damage to the coat. They do make nylon checks and flat nylon half checks to train with. They even make special ones so that the collar "fits" properly in the "groove" where all collars should be placed for maximum effect with minimum force.

And yes take if for what it's worth, as anything you read on the web is most probably B.S. especially when it comes from folks who never finished, trained professionally, or worked as a behaviorists.
_________________
Goldie Coats
Wyngold Britanys
Bend, OREGON, USA

doganjo · Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:11 pm Post subject:

Pippa's Pack · Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject:

I think there are several effective training methods and what works for one dog might not work for another. I have had dogs all my life and now own four Brittanys so do have some experience. However, I am not a very good trainer as I am well aware that I am probably too soft with them. Until I owned a Brittany I had never owned a dog that pulled on the lead to any great extent so the problem did not arise.

Just as we do not all follow the same rules when we bring up our children so it is with our dogs. Someone else's method is not necessarily wrong, may even be better but if you are not comfortable with it then do not use it.

I think part of the Brittany's problem is its zest for life and its very nature. But this is one of the things we love about them. We cannot have it all.

On a practical note, some people find using a longer lead which can be fixed around the body in a similar manner to as harness to be quite effective. Also some short walks where there are not too many interesting smells and distractions can help (but watch out for cats under cars and up alleyways!!).

Finally, when they get to 14 they seem to get the message and are really no trouble at all so something to look forward to Laughing

_________________
If your dog thinks you are the best do not seek a second opinion!

Patricia · Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:19 pm Post subject:

It seems to be 2 of the major issues. Pulling or running off. Guy is right in the focus thing and how important the human is in the dog's life. How you start a puppy off, what you get it to do, how much discipline it has and knows what is allowed or not.
In using a " check" chain- it is NOT a choke chain- it must be used correctly and it clicks when released. Check, release, praise, tit bits. Pull on lead, check, strong voice with the heel command.
Proof of sucess shows in the dog's behaviour? Whichever you choose, as long as it works!

.:HayleyH:. · Bretonnier Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 236