The Brittany Forum

Patricia

That is the subject which has attracted over 3950 readings on the French Forum...Has the game changed due to agriculture ? Has the grey partridge left forever? Are the dogs getting too fast and bred for field trial rather than good old rough shooting? Is their temperament too" independant"? Are they getting as fast as the " British" dogs ( against Continetal breeds)
It all makes great reading as I have noted some of my dogs more" goey"than others and some who once on game will give you the 2 fingers Confused

Whilst another will glance back at you, wait, won't argue, and generally is more focused on its" person".
Is 100 to 150 ms too far?? hence many French resorting to electric collars...Faster to find what is becoming more scarce game wise ?
I was surprised to hear than in some areas the wild population of pheasants is not allowed to cross with released game... in France.
Can a field trial dog be a normal shooting dog with all the bad habits it may pick up?

Ghilliegumdrop

I was surprised to hear than in some areas the wild population of pheasants is not allowed to cross with released game... in France.

How do they stop them breeding then......put pants on the females or give the males condoms at the start of the breeding season Rolling Eyes

_________________
Jan
Merlin, hips 9/9=18 and Ghillie, hips 8/9=17
Pull [n or v] An equal and opposite force perpetrated on both ends of a lead that results in the inevitable tripping and falling of the human involved!!

Victoria · Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:55 pm Post subject:

Patricia, I have been following this thread also.
I understand that in some European countries, there are more hunters and dogs than game birds and I can well understand the subsequent increase in field trials and attendances. At least their dogs are given a chance to hunt albeit in the structured manner of trials.
As a rough shooter I cannot quite reconcile myself to the structure of trials...my oven is the judge, the recipe the score card, the pleasure of the meal by my guests the trophy.
However, I would never ever presume to negate the abilities of handlers and dogs in the trial world...I know only too well from personal experience that it is not as easy as the experienced handlers and dogs make it look. But I have agonised over the correlation between the two disciplines of dogwork.
The speed of the dog is an interesting point...if you have a trial where your dog has say 15 minutes or 30 minutes for a completion you are going to want a dog with perhaps more speed than the roughshooter...although I like a fast Breton, unlike trialists, we can choose to spend five hours or all day (within the regulations regarding shooting hours) to secure a pheasant. I also believe that in the trial situation, perhaps because of how some experienced dogs develop a degree of automation, that connection may become less important...to me it is not only natural but paramount...I not only appreciate and have eye contact offered (because in one part it serves to constantly reenforce our mutual trust and cooperation), but I think it is very important especially when we are hunting an area my dogs and I are not familiar with, for instances, in some areas, there are under-runners (where the earth subsides...we are mostly on volcanic loam on limestone in my area) which are a dog person's biggest fear. And as we are in the process of developing silent commands, of course, it is a necessity, obviously Laughing

As for quartering distances (and I know this is one subject debated long and hard on other forums), I know how some judges have a preference for distances...say 150 yeards maximum, others will tolerate greater distances, other less. My dogs modify their quartering distances to the cover of the area we are in, which is natural to them and pretty obvious, but as field trials are held in fields of varying vastness, I guess it is a matter of modifying the dogs quartering to the judge's preference, which again is modyfing the dogs natural abilities to suit. But if this modification secures a challenge point then it reasonable enough to accept a trialist manipulating his dog's inclination (althought the use of electric collars to do so is unthinkable to me). Unlike the shooters dog who is going to place game in an empty pan, the trialist's dog may be going through the motions of hunting, but he is not providing for his family. The roughshooter also wants perhaps a greater degree of boldness and perserverance from his Breton...a gorse bush or huge rampant bramble bush shall not deter him!! One French author summed up the Breton's perservance as 'malicious intent' and this is real, as I witness so often, albeit stunning in its execution...
As a huntress, when researching pedigrees it is the dogs with FT titles that draw my eye...it is a catch 22 situation, the title indicates that the dog has ability in the field...but for my purposes, will a puppy from the title holder have real ability in the rough; the perserverance, deliberation, thoroughness, hardiness and endurance I ask for. And I think the question of whether we are at a risk of seeing three separate lines developing i.e field, show and hunt could be a valid one.
The Epagneul Breton is the poacher's dog...he cannot ever be permitted to lose his natural ability; no matter how bereft the land is of his preferred quarry.
_________________
"...amitie, respect mutuel et amour..."

guy

guy · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject:

Perhaps it is more a case of you don't see the 'old style' as the competitions are defined by the dogs that win - and these can only now be won the modern FT style dog.
Perhaps they need to change the competition style

I was talking to a Dutch trialler last year and he was explaining why the dogs are fast and why only those dogs that bore into the wind fast would win. If you watch the 'couples' run at Vimpelles last year the handlers were also running to keep up - hardly a safe practice if they carried a shot gun.
_________________
Guy, Ellie, Topaz, Catja and in memory Barley
Beauty from Structure
www.epagneulbreton.org.uk

steve · Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:26 pm Post subject:

i agree guy when iam out shooting i want to be safe with my gun and would not want to be running down the feild hoping the dog holds point to get a shot in please feel free for anyone to correct me but my idea of taking my dog and gun out is to train my dog to work a close area in front of me and slightly left and right of me in a controled manner so if anything is flushed it is in range for a clean safe shot the ultimate being a good trained dog holding point and flush on command i also want my dog to hold point when i fly my hawk or falcon to then put the bird in position ready for the flush again the same rules apply the hawk would lose confidence if the dog fushed 2 feilds away and had no chance of a flight if ive got anything wrong please put me right so i head in the right direction
thanks steve

doganjo · Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject:

steve · Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:25 pm Post subject:

Hi annie yes i know what you mean i apolagise after i re read my post i realised i had missed a bit out what i meant to add was after your dog is working and responded well at close range to experiance gunshot and how it all works then extend the range to let your dog show its true potentail but all being under control becuase as many people say give a brit half a feild to early and it will take a county Laughing

iam a long way of that stage yet and with all the good people on here iam sure i will head down the right path

doganjo · Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:41 pm Post subject:

I've let Allez off with too much in the past. I doubt if I'll ever get it right with him. He was great the first two years, then I moved house and let him do what he wanted for a year or so. Bitches are easier though.
_________________
Annie

Handle every situation like a dog, if you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away

Patricia · Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject:

?????????????????
The general concensus after reading the numerous posts of the French thread.
1; the biotype ( game) has changed due to a change in agriculture. Larger fields, less hedges, fewer partridges and wild pheasants> it seems as in some areas the hare is making a come back
2; A good dog will " get out there" to find whatever there is to be found. Speed is not a problem if in check with its handler.
3; Good and winning dogs are descended from successful field dogs often being in the awards consistently.
4; A Brittany does not need to be a boot polisher as it is not a Spaniel.No need for a 40 or 50 yards limit!!!
5; if people feel a Brittany is too far too fast, get a Spaniel!
6; And more to the point like Robert Morin( judge from Quebec) rightly mentionned: it is a question of temperament. The "independant" dog is the problem, the one hard headed who works for itself. Not a matter of speed at all....

About bitches, I prefer working a male...I find them more even tempered Wink

[/b]